New Podcast Release: Bishop Mariann Budde

In the latest episode of Lives Well Lived, the podcast I co-host with Kasia de Lazari-Radek, we speak with Bishop Mariann Budde, the first woman to serve as Episcopalian Bishop of Washington D.C. and of the Washington National Cathedral.

We begin with a clip from the sermon she delivered the day after Donald Trump’s second inauguration, in which she stood before the newly elected president and pleaded for mercy toward the people he had targeted: especially LGBTQ+ people, and immigrants. It was an act of courage that set the tone for our conversation about bravery, love, moral conviction, and religious faith

We discuss her new book We Can Be Brave, and why she believes courage is something we learn through life’s decisive moments. She tells the story of her sister’s quiet daily bravery caring for her dying husband and reflects on how true courage must be aligned with love.

We also talk about the place of faith, and about doubting one’s faith, the limits of love, voluntary assisted dying, and what it means to keep hope alive when the world feels dark. Bishop Budde speaks about standing firm in conviction while still kneeling before the humanity of others — and how she assesses a meaningful life.

Below are some highlights from our conversation, edited for clarity. You can listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform.

Speaking Truth to Power

Peter Singer: You gave a sermon the day after Donald Trump’s second inauguration… You began by calling for unity, after a polarizing election, and then said something that must have been even less welcome to the powerful figures you were addressing. I want our listeners to hear what you said.

Bishop Mariann Budde (excerpt from a recording): Let me make one final plea. Mr President, millions have put their trust in you… I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared. There are gay, lesbian and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and independent families. Some who fear for their lives… the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings… they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals… may God grant us the strength and courage to honour the dignity of every human being, speak the truth to one another in love, and walk humbly with each other and our God for the good of all people.

Kasia de Lazari-Radek: Defending the very people who the newly inaugurated president had targeted was a brave thing to do. What do you see as your role now?

Bishop Mariann Budde: You’re absolutely accurate that the actions of this government could not be defined with words such as mercy and compassion. The opposite would be the case. I feel a responsibility to continually present an alternative worldview — one in which mercy, justice, kindness, and dignity matter. Part of our work now is to respectfully and with courage present a different narrative, to speak of the ethical teachings of Jesus, and to help protect as much as we can the people and institutions under attack.

Learning to Be Brave

Kasia de Lazari-Radek: You have released a new book called We Can Be Brave. How did you learn to be brave?

Bishop Mariann Budde: I had originally written the book for adults… the entire book is based on the thesis that we learn to be brave, that it is part of the human experience starting when we’re very young. Life presents us with moments when we know that we are facing something unknown, something that has risk or cost for us, and often for those around us. It is in those moments, and what happens to us, that the learning process unfolds over the course of our lives.

Courage Rooted in Love

Peter Singer: If you only had to pick one story to illustrate what you’re trying to say, when you need to be brave, how you can be brave, is there one story you would choose?

Bishop Mariann Budde: The story that came to my mind right as you said that is the story of my sister. When her husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer, she chose, time and time again, through the last year of his life, to walk beside him and completely rearrange her life in order to care for him. She wasn’t making headlines, but it was of such courage and rooted in love, day after day after day, she chose love. It was the daily-ness of it — the small, steadfast choices that no one saw, yet which revealed the depth of her strength.

Aligning Courage with Love

Kasia de Lazari-Radek: What is of core importance in bravery? Why is it important to act upon it?

Bishop Mariann Budde: One can be brave for all sorts of motivations. Courage is neutral in terms of its outcome, it can go toward the good or it can go toward great harm. As I think about what constitutes a meaningful life, I believe that love is the most powerful, transformative force in the world. If we can align our courage in service of love, we are participating in the goodness of the world and in the healing of others.

Love as Practice, more than Feeling

Kasia de Lazari-Radek: Do you understand love more as an emotion or as a certain practice?

Bishop Mariann Budde: I think it’s both, but if we relied on our feelings alone, we would act lovingly only when we felt like it, and that would not be consistent. Emotions come and go. Mature love evolves to a practice, a commitment to be a loving person regardless of the circumstance, regardless of how one is treated, or how one feels on a given day. That’s the call of both the spiritual life and the brave life: further and further extensions of ourselves, in love for wider expressions of humankind.

Faith and Doubt

Kasia de Lazari-Radek: Have you ever lost faith?

Bishop Mariann Budde: Yes, in the sense that I have had my moments of deep and profound doubt and of despair. I have more confidence in God than I do in my faith in God. There’s a passage in the Gospel of Mark where a man says, “I believe; help my unbelief.” That’s the human experience. There is a poem that I was told was written on the wall of a Nazi concentration camp: “I believe in the sun even when it’s not shining. I believe in love even when I don’t feel it. And I believe in God even when God is silent.”

Hope Without Certainty

Peter Singer: In the epilogue you write about hope. Can atheists also have hope in difficult times?

Bishop Mariann Budde: Hope is not wishful thinking that things will get better, but a resolve to commit oneself to the good regardless of what happens. We don’t know if the human species will survive, or if we will rise to this moment — but I’m going to live on the side of doing what I can, because I don’t want to give up just because it doesn’t seem hopeful.

A Life Well Lived?

Peter Singer: We always ask our guests to reflect at the end of this conversation about their own life and how well they’ve lived.

Bishop Mariann Budde: I don’t know that I would say I’ve lived a good life, but I have been blessed with a very meaningful life. I don’t take credit for many of the good things I’ve been blessed with, and I’m grateful to have endured some of the things that I didn’t know that I could survive. I give thanks for that.