New Podcast Release: Brian Hare and Vanessa Woods

Our guests in the latest episode of Lives Well Lived are Brian Hare and Vanessa Woods, whose work on dogs, chimpanzees and bonobos has changed how we understand our closest animal companions, our closest nonhuman relatives, and ourselves.

In our conversation, Brian sets out the central idea of Survival of the Friendliest: that friendliness wins on planet earth, and that a new kind of attraction and cooperation, rather than aggression or dominance, enabled humans to thrive. He describes his visit to Siberia and the foxes that first made him realise that just with a change where fear is lost and replaced with attraction, you can have a new form of cooperation, a moment he calls an epiphany.

Vanessa talks about how ideas from evolutionary anthropology shape the world, from genocides to eugenics to corporate restructuring, and why she and Brian felt compelled to challenge the long-standing appeal of survival of the fittest, where fittest is understood in terms of strength, dominance and aggression. She also discusses the contrast between chimpanzees and bonobos, and the fact that the most high-ranking bonobo male, who is much friendlier, is more successful reproductively, which she sees as a vivid example of survival of the friendliest.

Together we explore what they call the paradox at the centre of human social life: our capacity to be simultaneously the kindest and the cruellest species on earth. Brian explains how the same cognitive mechanisms that enable empathy can also take away that attribution and allow us to morally disregard others when we feel our group is threatened. Vanessa explains why attempts to use reason often fail to break cycles of hostility — and why the only thing that really works is friendship.

We also turn to dogs. Brian describes how dogs have hijacked our system of care, and why interacting with them produces the same oxytocin response seen between human parents and infants. Vanessa speaks about the puppy kindergarten she directs at Duke University, and what it has taught her about the power of friendliness to completely change the day of someone and bring people together.

Below are highlights from our conversation, edited for clarity. You can listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform.

Brian’s scientific epiphany

KASIA DE LAZARI RADEK: What first made you suspect that kindness might be an evolutionary advantage rather than a moral luxury?

BRIAN HARE: The story is always the same story. A new type of attraction evolves, a new type of social interaction occurs that leads to more cooperation. I travelled to Siberia and met a very special population of foxes that for decades had been selected to lose their fear and have it be replaced by an attraction to humans. That attraction overwrote fear and allowed them to interact with humans and solve problems in a way that we are familiar with when we interact with our dogs. Just with a change where fear is lost and replaced with attraction, you can have a new form of cooperation and communication evolve. That was the epiphany for me.

PETER SINGER: Had you ever read Peter Kropotkin’s book Mutual Aid, published in 1902?

BRIAN HARE: I listened to his book after several people said “survival of the friendliest” is Kropotkin’s idea. I had never read it or heard about it. I listened to the book and I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

Bonobos vs chimpanzees — a revealing contrast

PETER SINGER: If we are friendly, does that mean that we are maybe closer to bonobos than chimpanzees?

VANESSA WOODS: Chimpanzees are a male-dominated society. They kill each other and beat their females and kill their infants. In bonobos the most dominant individual is always a female. It’s not that they don’t have any violence, but unlike chimpanzees who use violence to establish dominance and maintain control, bonobos use it to maintain the peace. If a male bonobo wakes up one day and decides that he wants to start acting like a male chimpanzee and starts aggressing towards a female, she and her closest five friends will beat the living daylights out of him. That is what our Congolese friends call being corrected.

The most high-ranking bonobo male, who is much friendlier than the highest-ranking chimpanzee male, is more successful reproductively. That is a beautiful example of survival of the friendliest.

BRIAN HARE: I try every day to be a better bonobo male. In terms of who our species is like, it depends on the trait. Bonobos have non-conceptive sex; chimpanzees don’t. We have lethal aggression; bonobos don’t. Bonobos do not make tools in the wild, chimpanzees do. It’s a mosaic. Bonobos have solved the problem of lethal aggression in a way that both chimpanzees and humans have not.

The paradox: the same mechanisms that make us kind also make us cruel

KASIA DE LAZARI RADEK: Can openness or trust, the very traits that once helped us survive, now make us vulnerable?

BRIAN HARE: Humans have this new form of friendliness, an attraction to strangers who we recognise as sharing an identity. That means we can expand our social networks and learn more from a larger body of innovators. But our world is not conflict-free. We are the friendliest species of human to ever evolve, yet look around at all the cruelty in the world. The same mechanism in our mind that allows us to have empathy and compassionate responses allows us to take away that attribution. We can dis-attribute a mind to others. When we feel our group is threatened, we no longer recognise the other group as fully human, and we can morally disregard them and potentially do horrific things.

VANESSA WOODS: Hormones like testosterone, serotonin and oxytocin have left imprints in our skeletons. Oxytocin is called the hug hormone, but we call it the mama bear hormone. When is a mother bear most adoring? When she is with her cubs. When is she most dangerous? At that same moment. When you administer oxytocin, people can become more willing to harm out-group members. The thing that makes us kindest is also what makes us cruel. We can be simultaneously the kindest and the cruellest species on earth.

Why reasoning often fails — and why friendship works

PETER SINGER: Do you think that reason has been a force for expanding our circles of moral concern?

VANESSA WOODS: Trying to use reason and logic has mixed results. Education training or implicit bias training doesn’t always work. The only thing that really works is friendship. If two people from opposite groups can have a relationship, preferably a friendship, it can short-circuit the dehumanising cycle. When these two people form this friendship, they can take it back to their groups and dilute any antipathy. Programs like Israeli and Palestinian kids playing soccer together, or white Southern servicemen serving with Black servicemen post–World War II — all examples of contact theory. During the pandemic you could tell people all the facts using perfect reasoning and it was not going to help.

Dogs and the evolution of care

KASIA DE LAZARI RADEK: Is it similar with other animals? Do other animals help each other and get rewarded with pleasure?

BRIAN HARE: Dogs are exhibit A of survival of the friendliest. They have been selected to lose their fear and replace it with an attraction to us. Dogs prefer humans to dogs. They find their interactions with us incredibly rewarding. When they make eye contact with us it releases oxytocin that causes bonding. Dogs have evolved a muscle that lets them reveal more of the white of their eyes, enhancing this effect. It is very rewarding to interact with a dog and they have evolved to elicit that reward.

Service dogs have higher circulating oxytocin and make more eye contact. Millions of people could benefit from them, but they take two years and fifty thousand dollars to raise, and half of them fail.

VANESSA WOODS: We have had 101 puppies through the puppy kindergarten. Fifty were raised on Duke’s campus to see if an overwhelming flood of friendliness would help them become successful as service dogs. Cognitively it did not do much, but it made them more confident.

A friendship that changed Vanessa’s understanding of America

PETER SINGER: We’ve talked about lives well lived for various non-human species. Having studied our closest relatives, the chimpanzees and bonobos, and also our closest companion animals, what does this tell you about living well in general, not just for humans, and is there something translatable to humans?

VANESSA WOODS: I would just say that friendliness is a really powerful strategy. Not only for a life lived well, but in every area. It leads to success in all types of areas. If I had a weakness, if there was a group I would be more chimpanzee to than bonobo, it would probably have been rural Republicans in Western North Carolina. I did not have very warm and fuzzy feelings towards them.

We got a cabin in the mountains and started to get to know our neighbours. We became friends with people who had horse farms and trap ponds, and we have real deep emotional connections now. Becoming friends with them allowed us to have much more frank conversations and to understand where they were coming from. We had a terrible hurricane called Helene and Brian drove up there with water and food supplies. It has been transformative. I am not part of that anger anymore.

Closing reflection

KASIA DE LAZARI RADEK: Do you think that you’ve lived your lives well so far?

VANESSA WOODS: The puppy kindergarten has taught me how possible it is to completely change the day of someone just by being friendly. They are rainbows at the end of a leash. It can be easy to forget that you can be the bright corner where you live. I try to be more like a puppy every day — accept people for who they are, be in the moment, disconnect from the phone. It may not change everything, but it can be a small light.