New Podcast Release: Leading Organizations to Make the World a Better Place

with Julia van Boven & Sjir Hoeijmakers

In the latest episode of Lives Well Lived, the podcast I co-host with Kasia de Lazari-Radek, we speak with Julia van Boven and Sjir Hoeijmakers: two people using their careers and resources to make the world a better place.

Sjir tells us how watching my 2015 TED Talk on effective altruism set him on the path to founding Effective Altruism Netherlands and later leading Giving What We Can, a global community whose members pledge to donate at least ten percent of their income to the most effective charities.

Julia describes her unusual journey from studying ethics and lobbying for NGOs to working inside one of the Netherlands’ largest banks, where she founded the Sustainable Finance Desk and later helped create a Future Generations Board to embed long-term ethical thinking in business decisions. Then Julia co-founded the School for Moral Ambition, helping people align their talents and careers with meaningful impact. Our conversation ranges from how to motivate giving to what makes change sustainable, to the personal side of living ethically while striving to live well.

Below are some highlights from our discussion, edited for clarity. You can listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform.

How it all began: the influence of Peter’s TED Talk

Kasia: You are both in senior positions in organisations that are trying to make the world a better place. At what point did you decide to have a career that involved making a positive difference?

Sjir: After my studies I saw your TED talk on effective altruism in 2015, and that’s when I really accelerated my doing good and made something serious out of it. It led to me founding Effective Altruism Netherlands, where I first met you, Peter. You’ve had a pretty big influence on my career.

What Giving What We Can really is

Kasia: Can we explain to our listeners what Giving What We Can is?

Sjir: Our main thing is a 10% pledge - you commit 10% of your lifetime income to wherever you think it can do the most good. It’s personal and it’s about reflection. We now have over 10,000 people who’ve taken this pledge, and our ambition is to grow from 10,000 to a million.

Julia’s turning point - from philosophy to banking, and then…

Peter: I know you worked for seven years at ABN Amro, one of the major Dutch banks. What led you to work for a big bank?

Julia: I had studied applied ethics and thought I’d work in lobbying for human rights organisations. But I became impatient — progress was slow, and there was never any money. After some failed attempts, I sat in a Buddhist monastery and realised, if I’m not good at anything yet, I can just as well think what I really want. I knew I wanted to help solve climate change. I thought: no one would listen to a 25-year-old philosopher, but everyone listens to the source of their money — the bank. So I applied to a traineeship and wrote, ‘You’ve probably never received a letter from an ethicist, but I really think you could use one.’ And they did hire me.

Changing the system from within

Peter: You’d only been there three months when you challenged senior management. What happened?

Julia: They were presenting a new five-year strategy saying they’d become a sustainable bank while still growing in oil and gas. I thought, now’s my time to step up. I stood in front of 500 people and asked why they’d do this. That’s where the ball started to roll — they invited me to think along, and later we started the Sustainable Finance Desk.

Looking to the future - ethics inside the bank

Kasia: How did you keep fighting for change within the bank?

Julia: I started teaching ethics again, translating the rights of future generations into the bank’s decisions. We created a Future Generations Board to look ahead 50 or 100 years. But I saw how much courage it required. People chose comfort and certainty. I don’t think I was able to really change the bank.

The idea of moral ambition

Peter: So after seven years at the bank, you chose to leave. How did you become involved in the School for Moral Ambition?

Julia: I read an article by the Dutch historian and author Rutger Bregman about a school recruiting the biggest talents, not to start businesses, but to start the most effective nonprofits. I thought, I really want to get into that school. I didn’t get in, but it planted a seed. Later, on a dance floor in Amsterdam, I met his co-founder. Three days later we had coffee — and that’s where the ball started to roll.

The power of individuals

Kasia: How are your ideas developing within the charity you work at?

Sjir: I discovered early on that we’re all much more powerful than we think. If you earn more than $35,000 after tax in the US, you’re in the top 5% globally. So if not you, then who? With just $5,000 you can save a life, on average. It’s strange that we easily spend $50,000 to extend a life by one year in wealthy countries, yet $5,000 can save a child’s life from malaria, and maybe extend the child’s life by 50 years or more.

Motivation and meaning

Kasia: What motivates people to give and get involved?

Julia: We want to look ourselves in the mirror and be proud of what we’ve done. I’ve met countless people who built great businesses, made lots of profits, went on endless holidays — and still it doesn’t feel enough. It’s much more fulfilling to help others. Maybe we also do good for selfish reasons, but why not? That’s evolution.

How change happens — the importance of asking

Peter: Sjir, you’ve personally encouraged friends to take the 10% pledge. Haven’t you lost friends doing that?

Sjir: My experience has been positive. The key is asking in a non-judgmental way. I once asked my friends to give me, as a birthday present, 30 minutes to talk about effective giving — not to pledge, just to talk. I asked what they thought and whether they’d ever considered it for themselves. Six people ended up pledging. I’ve learned people just need information and to be asked — kindly. That can change the world.

The personal side — work and leisure, ideals and relationships

Julia and Sjir discuss how, even though they know their work is so important that putting in an extra hour could save a life, they do ensure that they have some leisure in their lives, and time for relationships too.