New Podcast Release: Shermin Kruse

In this episode of Lives Well Lived, Kasia de Lazari-Radek and I speak with Shermin Kruse, author of Stoic Empathy and the semi-autobiographical novel Butterfly Stitching, about the moment in her childhood that shaped her idea of tactical empathy. At nine years old, she stood in a marketplace in Iran facing a morality guard with an assault rifle and watched her mother defuse the situation through calm, perceptive understanding rather than fear or anger. That helped her to become a partner in a major US law firm, handling high-stakes negotiations with Fortune 100 companies.

Our conversation moves from that early experience to the changing realities in Iran after the death of Mahsa Amini, the distinction between emotional and cognitive empathy, and why empathy can shift power even in situations of danger. Shermin also explains how stoicism fits with empathy, how the immigrant experience shaped her life, why she cannot return to Iran today, and discusses exercises, outlined in Stoic Empathy, to help us overcome our anxieties and other psychological problems.

Below are highlights from our conversation, edited for clarity. You can listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform.

Tactical Empathy in a Life-Threatening Encounter

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: Do you remember what your mother said to the Iranian morality guard who threatened to arrest you and your mother because you were not wearing a headscarf?

SHERMIN KRUSE: The timeframe was significant because this was shortly after the Iranian revolution, at the height of the Iran-Iraq war. There were up to six missile attacks a day, energy shortages, long bread lines, and hardship for everyone, including the morality police. My mom empathised with these aspects of the guard’s life. She said something like: “You must be very frustrated, because it is hot, because there are missile attacks, and because you are endlessly just telling people over and over again to cover their hair.” That immediately diffused tension. She then explained that I had just come of age, that we were in a rush, and said she would not do it again. The most important thing she did was provide a reason for the guard to move on. As she empathised with the guard’s emotions, you could see the guard’s body language relaxing, the finger loosening on the trigger. She also helped the guard understand how it must be for us, without going into moral aspects, because that would not have helped in that moment.

The Reality After Mahsa Amini and How Empathy Works Under Repression

PETER SINGER: You said the temperature on the streets has lowered and your mother could go up to a morality guard without a headscarf. But there was the terrible incident with the death of Mahsa Amini. How did that happen if the temperature had relaxed?

SHERMIN KRUSE: Mahsa Amini was essentially beaten to death for her headscarf not being on properly. It gave rise to the “Woman, Life, Freedom” Movement and massive demonstrations. The regime targeted demonstrators with rubber bullets, often aiming for the eyes. A lot of horrible things happened. I did not mean to imply the situation had resolved itself. The tolerance level for headscarf infractions has changed, and more women get away without wearing a headscarf, but it is still incredibly risky and could have gotten my mother killed. I told her she was crazy to do it. These stories are to demonstrate that empathy does not equal weakness. In situations where power imbalance, anger, and hostility are extreme, empathy can give rise to your power. These were two examples of my mother behaving differently at very different times, both showing how empathic awareness can increase power even when it feels non-existent.

Leaving Iran: What Her Parents Sacrificed

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: You were 11 when your family left Iran. Why did your parents decide to leave, and how difficult was it for them?

SHERMIN KRUSE: They left for us, completely for us. They sacrificed a lot, but I don’t think they struggled with the decision. They left brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, their language, their soil, their way of being. My dad had 200 people working for him in Iran. In Canada, he became an air conditioning repair person. It’s honest work requiring intelligence and problem-solving, but it’s different in terms of power, control, pride, and use of his degree. They believed we would have greater control over our bodies, political choices, personal decisions, academic and professional opportunities. They may have overestimated how much control we would have, but they were not mistaken that it would be far greater.

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: And do you remember how you felt?

SHERMIN KRUSE: I felt how the daughter in Butterfly Stitching feels. As a child, I thought everything in Canada was going to be perfect. Streets paved with gold, butterflies giving rides to school. Then you arrive poor, kids bully you, nobody understands what you are saying, nobody knows you’re smart. Middle school is horrible everywhere. But it is different. It is fundamentally different. Being able to pursue any profession without a husband’s permission, or being able to leave a marriage without automatically losing your children, is different. I raise my children with a golden passport. Neither I nor they did anything to deserve that. It was luck. I had nothing to do with my migration. I was the beneficiary.

Being Blacklisted From Iran

PETER SINGER: Do you go back and see your relatives in Iran? Can you do that?

SHERMIN KRUSE: I am blacklisted. Not on the official blacklist, but the unofficial one. My uncle checked for me. For years my relatives asked why I didn’t visit, so finally I said I would come. He told me, don’t come. I’ve done enough writing and speaking against the regime. One of my sisters used to go back often but her UN position makes it challenging now. My parents go back and forth. The government does not recognise my American citizenship. As far as it’s concerned, I have no rights. If I’m there, I am theirs to do with as they wish. That’s why they target dual nationals. We are outspoken, and if we are there, they have complete control.

Emotional and Cognitive Empathy

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: You write about empathy grounded in cognition rather than emotion. How do you distinguish cognitive empathy from emotional empathy in your daily life?

SHERMIN KRUSE: Psychology distinguishes between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy is your pain in my heart. You watch something happen to a fictional character, and your body reacts. When it is your child or your best friend, you can feel their pain or joy in your body. Cognitive empathy doesn’t require emotional connection. It is not walking a mile in your shoes, but next to you. Setting your rhythm to theirs, sensing what they sense, while keeping emotional distance. You do this when someone is hostile or when someone is dependent on you. It’s a spectrum, not a duality. You can shift between emotional and cognitive empathy depending on trust, responsibility, or the conversation. They occur in different parts of the brain but are both forms of empathy.

Empathising With Those Who Have Done Harm

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: Can we be empathic toward everyone, even people who have done really bad things to us or our family?

SHERMIN KRUSE: It’s not an obligation. But if someone like a criminologist can empathise with a wrongdoer, that understanding can help not just in apprehending them but in preventing future wrongdoing. There is good that can come from understanding. If done correctly, the likelihood of harm to you is minimal and the likelihood of you gaining strength, power, and control in a situation is increased. I have had people do horrible things to me as a child. My empathy training didn’t teach forgiveness. It taught me how this happens, how societies accept evils, how humanity submits. If you want to prevent it, you need to understand it. Emotional connection must be handled carefully, but cognitive understanding can be useful.

Stoicism and Empathy Together

PETER SINGER: Many people think stoicism means shutting off emotion, while empathy requires openness to others. How can stoicism be combined with empathy?

SHERMIN KRUSE: Stoicism is misunderstood as emotionless resilience. Ancient stoicism is deeply about emotional regulation, cognitive behavioural approaches, and fairness. Stoicism expands the space between impulse and response so that you can insert as much of yourself as possible. You can allow emotion to be information rather than something that controls you. Letting go of what is outside your control is similar to mindfulness and Buddhism. Stoicism doesn’t tell you not to love or care. It teaches how to approach situations with control, so that you leave as much in control of yourself as possible. This makes room for empathic stoicism and even stoic vulnerability. You cannot control others or outcomes, but you can control your responses. That is where stoic empathy fits: understanding the world and yourself, influencing what you can, and controlling yourself.

The “Arrow in the Air” and the Limits of Control

PETER SINGER: You’ve said we can change our world through choice, but surely there are limits, especially in places like Iran. What are the boundaries of what we can actually control?

SHERMIN KRUSE: The truth is complex. Stoicism recognises the dichotomy of control. Viktor Frankl wrote about having nothing except his own thoughts in a concentration camp. That is what you can always rely on. The Greeks used the example of archery. You practise, prepare your arrows, aim, breathe, release. Once the arrow is in the air, there is nothing you can do to change where it lands. You can prepare the next shot, but you cannot change what is done. I have students write out the circle of things they care about, the smaller circle of things they can control, and then the non-controllables. You can influence some things, but you cannot control them. Recognising the limits of control and focusing on what is within the smaller circle is powerful.

Empathy in Negotiation and Leadership

PETER SINGER: You were a successful lawyer working with major companies. How did the skills you’ve been discussing help you in that work?

SHERMIN KRUSE: As an attorney for Fortune 500 and Fortune 100 companies, these skills were essential. In international trade disputes or mediations between CEOs of subsidiaries, empathy and stoicism were excellent skills to have. I left law because, as I gained economic power, I could make different decisions. I had large debts coming out of law school and obligations I had to meet. Later, I could afford to teach and write and still support my family. Throughout those 20 years I dedicated myself to giving back through NGOs, especially international peace and dialogue organisations and civil liberties work.

Exercises for Building Empathic and Stoic Capacity

KASIA DE LAZARI-RADEK: Can you give an example of an exercise we can all practise every day?

SHERMIN KRUSE: The book contains meditations and neuroscience on how these practices build resilience. One common exercise is ice immersion. Studies from the 1960s had people submerge their hands in ice water to gauge pain tolerance, and through focusing on breathing or distraction, increase their ability to withstand the cold. Another exercise is low-stakes negotiating. Ask for a free bag at the grocery store, or a free pump of vanilla at a café. If they say no, you pay. It’s safe and low stakes. A friend’s child with selective mutism was told to say hello to one person a day, then two, then gradually to teachers and peers. Through practice she eventually weaned herself off anti-anxiety medication. Adults can identify what they cannot tolerate, where they lose control, and then create exercises around habituation or discomfort embracing. People with chronic pain often use meditation to embrace the pain, observe it, and conquer it. The book is full of these tools and applies them to parenting, negotiation, healing, and leadership.